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(Lk 19:41-44)
As he drew near, he saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If this day you only knew what makes for peace -- but now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides. They will smash you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

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@George 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Exodus

@twfljeb
Yes. Slavery 3,500 years ago encompassed a spectrum of meaning from those captured in war to those voluntarily submitting in repayment of debt.

God worked incrementally to change the culture's hearts to see the dignity and worth of every human being, each and every one made in His image and likeness.

This passage does not condone slavery but is a step to limit the worst abuses. At the time this was a big change for their attitudes.

@George it is giving specific instructions how to treat tour slave. Owning a person is slavery and no amount of silly apologetics changes that. That bronze age superstition that you hold so dear is full.of violence and contradictions.

@twfljeb
Giving instructions to treat other human beings better than the norm is not a bad thing. Humanity had and still has a long way to go.

It is easy to take Bible verses out of their genre and historical context. It doesn't prove anything any more than any other straw man argument.

@George it's not a strawman. It's what your book of fables says verbatim. There is no proper historical context for owning ,beating and potentially killing another person. You magic believers really go out of your way to defend such a ridiculous superstition

@twfljeb
The historical context for this period is actually rather well understood. Understanding it does not justify it. God's revelation was incremental as people were able to accept it. No magic is involved, just academic integrity and honesty.

It is through the enlightenment of faith that we have progressed from this to actually recognize the equal dignity of all people.

@George Faith is not a reliable path to truth and it takes a pretty I credible dickhead to support slavery of any kind and rationalize it as being necessary. I really do not care what your imaginary friend says about reality. Until you can demonstrate such a thing exists then it's no different than any other made up god. Imagination

@twfljeb
More straw man - I never supported slavery or said anything of the kind. It is abhorrent and antithetical to my faith. I understand how it came to be just as I understand how wars came to be.

More importantly God never intended slavery. That's on us. In the period in question (3,500 years ago), God was reigning in this abuse to the degree possible. One step on a long road.

Not believing God exists because of a verse you misinterpret is not solid ground.

@George I am merely pointing out one of many ridiculous stories in that book. My non belief in your imaginary friend is entirely due to lack of evidence . You may attempt to twist the words but if you support something that gives explicit instructions on how to treat your slaves then you also support the same.

@twfljeb
I hear what you are saying and understand.

A different approach may have been to command all slaves be immediately freed. Where slavery exists today (and sadly it is far, far from gone), condemning it and demanding freedom seems to me to be the only stance. Had that been the demand 3,500 years ago it would have been completely ignored. No progress would have been made at all.

That gradualism continues to this day for society in general and for each of its members.

@George Ridiculous. Shell fish and mixed fabric bad.Slavery just fine. Give me a break lol. If your god is all powerful and created all things then im sure he is able to put an end to slavery at any time of his choosing. Perhaps he was to busy killing and commanding his people to commit genocide, rape women and eat children?

@twfljeb
The Mosaic code on food, fabric and other requirements was to orient people from their concupiscent desires toward holiness. They were very stuborn and set in their ways, yet this they could choose to follow by their free will.

You are correct in that God could have ended slavery, abuse, murder, war, mean words, bad thoughts, etc. but at a cost of free will. It would have been a different kind of slavery, one from which we would not have the freedom to love God or each other. These are His prime commandments, but it our choice.

@George The apologetics never stop. What about all the raping , killing and every other manner of treachery? all good stuff too? Ridiculous!

@twfljeb
Not good stuff nor God's will, as I bet you know.

Apologetics is simply teaching what our faith really believes. Questions asked in good faith deserve answers.

To the degree I can answer your questions comes only because I had similar questions. For that matter, I still have questions but have found that each time I make a deep dive, I learn a lot and the answers are there, the modes of credibility are substantial, and I see God's hand around me and in my own life.

@George Apologetics is needed to explain away the obvious bullshit that religion is founded on. I am well aware what various religions teach and I know that book like the back of my hand. I used to be a believer but then I am not able to be intellectually dishonest with myself and continue to believ something that Iis demonstrably false. That is where we are different. That is fine as long as you are not in government influecing laws or teaching children

@twfljeb
I have seen a lot of claims thrown out there, but it is more than a big leap to demonstrably proven. That said, I do agree that we all must be true to our conscience and intellectually honest. Not in a relativistic way, but with a well-formed conscience.

Apologetics is needed to explain what is actually believed and to understand beyond a superficial level. It does not and could not convert hearts.

@George apologetics are used to explain what any intellectually honest individual knows is true. Truth is demonstrable. Fantasy is not. There is no difference between your god and any other god that people invent. Dont speak about that nonsense as if it is true if you cant demonstrate it

@George @twfljeb So what you're saying is, the Bible is outdated and irrelevant for modern society. Got it, good take.

@galena @George I'm saying it was written by people who didnt know where the sun went at night. It contains a multitude of events that did not happen. It is a book of fables. It isnt any more relevant than is the illiad and odyssey. It is the same. Great fiction

@twfljeb @galena
It conveys to us God's revelation, who He is and what He intends for us. It is not a science or history book. This truth is conveyed in several genres (including "fables"), in various historical context, in languages other than English and cultural settings different than ours.

@George The bible contains a multitude of things that are demonstrably false. Why does your god write or inspire books that are full of fables?

@twfljeb
To illustrate points. Jesus, for example, often used parables ("fables") for exactly this purpose.

Again, it isn't a history or science book.

@George we agree on that. It is not a history book and is not a science book. 100% correct

@galena @twfljeb
I am sorry you didn't understand as my actual claim is exactly the opposite of your restatement.

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